Ep. 70: Re-Wire Your Mind: Meditation to Drive Neuroplastic Changes with Shauna Shapiro, Ph.D.

In this episode, we are joined by Dr. Shauna Shapiro, Ph.D., a best-selling author, professor, and researcher at Santa Clara University and Stanford. Dr. Shapiro taps into her own experience and expertise to help us dive into the concepts of mindfulness and meditation and understand how their practice can lead to positive neuroplastic changes.

In this episode, we touch on:

• – How the formal practice of meditation cultivates the skill of mindfulness and what that looks like.
• – How effective meditation leads to positive neuroplasticity and quality of life.
• – The impact of self-compassion vs. shame on our ability to learn.
• – Dr. Shapiro’s own experience with the Neubie and how it improved her physical and mental health.

Tune in now to learn more on how you can apply and implement mindfulness and meditation to your day-to-day life.

You can find Shauna’s work, books, and free guided meditations on her website at www.drshaunashapiro.com

Read the transcript:

Garrett Salpeter  (00:01.763)
Dr. Shauna Shapiro, welcome.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (00:04.012)
Oh, thank you. I’m delighted to be here.

Garrett Salpeter  (00:07.632)
I’m very, very excited to have you on the show here. I’ve been looking forward to this one ever since we met back at the Runga event several months ago here in Austin. And I had the privilege of hearing you speak and just knew that this is a message that had to be shared and would benefit everyone in New Fit Nation. So I’m really excited to dive in here to kind of frame up the conversation with everyone. Can you tell us a little bit about your story and how you got into mindfulness in the first place?

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (00:33.374)
Yeah, well, it began a long time ago. When I was 17 years old, I had spinal fusion surgery. So I had a metal rod put in my spine. I had scoliosis. And we found out that my curvature of my spine had progressed so significantly that it was going to puncture my lungs. So we had to operate. And I had been captain of my volleyball team. I had just signed to play at Duke University.

when all of a sudden I needed this surgery. And basically overnight I went from this healthy, active athlete to lying in a hospital bed, unable to walk. And I was in the hospital bed for six months. I never played volleyball again. And it was a very difficult time. I felt like my whole life had been yanked away from me. And really at age 17, I didn’t have the tools to cope.

So I became very anxious, very depressed. And luckily, my father gave me a book called Wherever You Go, There You Are by Dr. John Kabat-Zinn. And I’ll never forget the first line. It said, whatever’s happened to you, it’s already happened. The only thing that matters is now what. And it was as if this path opened up before me, that there was hope that I wasn’t stuck.

And so I started reading everything I could about mindfulness. And eventually when I had healed a couple of years later, I went to Thailand and Nepal to study mindfulness. And it was really my experience at the monasteries there that led me on this entire journey. I discovered a peace and really just an ease that I had never felt before. And

For the first time since my back surgery, which had been two years before, I wasn’t in physical pain. And so when I left Thailand, I decided I wanted to study mindfulness and really understand kind of from a rigorous scientific lens, what I had experienced so I could help other people.

Garrett Salpeter  (02:46.12)
That’s awesome. And you did go on and become a PhD clinical psychologist and really be able to help other people, both through research and actual clinical work with patients. And it’s amazing how you’re able to.

perform the ultimate alchemy, turning those challenges into blessings for yourself and others. So thank you for sharing that. You mentioned this word mindfulness. Can you give us a working definition so we’re all speaking the same language here? And also, when you do that, touch on the relationship between mindfulness and meditation because I think there’s some sort of relationship there. Sometimes people conflate the two, but you’ll be able to explain.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (03:15.158)
Yes.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (03:20.105)
Mmm.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (03:24.906)
Yeah, both of those are so important. I mean, mindfulness has become so popular that it’s cut, you know, we’ve kind of lost the understanding of what it truly means. So first, mindfulness and meditation are different. Meditation is really the exercise that you do to cultivate mindfulness. Mindfulness is just a way of being.

a way of listening and talking to each other, a way of eating and walking. It’s just a way of being present. So I like to define mindfulness by including three key elements. So the first one we just talked about, this is being present. And I call this attention, right? Your ability to focus your attention in the present moment. But it’s also about why you’re paying attention. And this is your intention. So what’s important?

because we can focus our attention on a million different things. So why am I focusing my attention here? This is my kind of goals, my aspirations, what’s important to me. And then your attitude is how you pay attention. And this is with this quality of kindness, of curiosity, of compassion. So mindfulness then is intentionally paying attention with kindness and curiosity. This intention.

attention attitude.

Garrett Salpeter  (04:47.476)
That’s fabulous. I love that. And in your book, which for if you’re just listening, you don’t see me, but if you’re watching this, you see me holding up her book, Rewire Your Mind, subtitle is Discover the Science and Practice of Mindfulness. This is I highly recommend this. I have so many notes and underlines in my copy here. And one of the things that I like about this wasn’t the actually the original title, we’ll come back to come back to that later.

rewire your mind. I love that because you describe neuroplasticity and we, you know, here at New Fit, we talk a lot about the SET principle, specific adaptation to impose demand and how we always get better at what it is that we’re doing. And we think about that a lot in terms of movement and body position, posture and things like that. And you take those same principles and apply them in a way that I hear that I’m like,

Oh my gosh, that makes so much sense. I wish I had thought of that. You know, it’s one of those like, oh my gosh, it’s almost self-evident. So powerful and so clear, but applying those same principles of how our minds work, we’re always getting better at whatever those patterns are. So what are some of the patterns of mind that people have that could be improved or influenced through mindfulness also?

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (05:56.043)
Yeah.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (06:04.518)
Yeah, well, you just said so many important things. And I think that’s why there is such a beautiful confluence between the work that you and I both do. And I think the way that I see kind of neuroplasticity is, you know, it’s different than how most people see it. Because I think most people think of neuroplasticity and they’re like, oh, it’s such a great thing. And it is such a great thing when it’s positive neuroplasticity.

but there’s also negative neuroplasticity. And neuroplasticity in and of itself is just the fact that our brain and nervous system continue to be shaped by our experiences, by our thoughts, our emotions, our behaviors, our practices. And what mindfulness does is puts us back in choice. It allows us to

choose intentionally, right? To choose what’s important, where we wanna focus our attention. And through that, we can begin to carve out new pathways. And so I like to think of it as we have these super highways of habit, right? And for me, often, my super highways are impatience or self-judgment. And the more I practice those, the more they become strengthened. And that’s why they’re super highways. They’re very fast and very well-groomed.

What mindfulness allows me to do is start to choose other pathways I want to cultivate. For example, patience or self-compassion. And I call these country roads because they’re not as fast as the super highways. We haven’t practiced them as much. But every time we choose to go down that pathway, we’re literally pruning our old negative habitual patterns and growing this new path.

Garrett Salpeter  (07:58.736)
That’s awesome. And one of the possible mind patterns that you mentioned there is self-compassion. And you have a beautiful description on the book. Can you tell us a little bit about what self-compassion is? Because at least when I first heard the term, it sounded nice, but also a little bit abstract.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (08:16.786)
Yes, it is. In fact, I’ll say that’s a good response that you had. Most people just roll their eyes at me when I bring up self-compassion. So especially I’m a clinical psychologist, so people are working with me. They want to change, right? They are motivated. And they’re like, you don’t understand. When I bring up self-compassion, they’re like, no, I really want to change. And so the first thing I’ll say is that self-compassion is not about letting yourself off the hook.

Garrett Salpeter  (08:24.468)
Bye.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (08:44.306)
It’s not about lying to ourselves or being sweet to ourselves just because, um, let me say this a different way. It’s not about lying to ourselves. And I want to be really clear about that. Um, self-compassion is about being courageously honest, but it’s about being on your own team. And so to take it from the abstract to the concrete, what I would say is self-compassion is like treating yourself as you would treat a dear friend who was struggling.

So if your friend was having a hard time, what would you say? How would you treat them? And can you bring that same kindness back to yourself? And I always reflect on in Tibetan, the word compassion always includes oneself. It’s considered incomplete if it doesn’t include oneself.

And so self-compassion is not selfish, it’s not self-indulgent, it’s actually this very powerful way of reclaiming our health and our commitment to living our best lives. And one of the things that I think is interesting is to look at the research of self-compassion and to also look at the research on shame.

So when we shame and judge ourselves, which is often what we do when we’ve made a mistake, sorry, it’s often what we do when we’ve made a mistake or, you know, or we’re struggling, right? We somehow blame ourselves. But when we do this, it actually shuts down the learning centers of our brain and keeps us stuck in the very behaviors we’re trying to change. So when we shame ourselves, it releases

norepinephrine, adrenaline, cortisol. It floods our nervous system. It shuts down our learning centers and shuttles all our resources to survival pathways. Shame literally robs us of the energy we need to change. Now, self-compassion on the other hand, does some incredible things neurochemically. It first of all releases oxytocin, which is this hormone of love and safety.

Dr.  Shauna Shapiro (10:53.458)
It also releases dopamine, which is the neuromodulator of learning and motivation. So self-compassion actually not just feeling nice, but it actually gives us the resources we need to change.

Garrett Salpeter  (11:07.792)
That’s awesome. And, um, I like, I like that description of speaking to ourselves, you know, as if we were our own friend or, or a parent or something like that, where I know at times in my own, I know at times in my own life, I would have, I would have said things, you know, more negative and mean to myself than I would ever say to anyone else. And

Dr  Shauna Shapiro (11:17.782)
Yeah.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (11:28.05)
Yeah, we’re so hard on ourselves. And I love that you brought up how you would speak to a child because I think you and I are both parents. And when I think of my son, you know, if I think of him, like if he was in pain or he had hurt himself, the tenderness that would naturally come. And yet when I’m in pain, I’m like, oh, you stupid or something like that. And so it’s really helpful.

just clinically to think of a dear friend or a child when you’ve made a mistake or you’re in pain, to think how would you speak to them? Literally even like your tone of voice is what kind of helps when I’m working with patients, helps them clinically shift.

Garrett Salpeter  (12:07.516)
I love that. And also in light of this conversation about neuroplasticity, how if I’m more compassionate with myself, I then learn to build that country road into a super highway and be able to be more compassionate with others also.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (12:20.69)
Exactly, and the research bears that out, that people who are higher in self-compassion are rated as more compassionate and generous and kind by their partners, their colleagues, and their friends. Because a lot of times people think, oh, well, if I’m kind to myself, I’m gonna become selfish. But research shows the exact opposite.

Garrett Salpeter  (12:39.856)
That’s awesome. So speaking of research, that’s a good segue here into, you know, if people need more motivation or understanding of mindfulness to really, to, you know, to really choose to, or to participate in a practice, what are, I mean, you mentioned, you mentioned dopamine, you mentioned changing the autonomic nervous system and having fewer stress hormones. And, you know, which sets up, of course, you know, an environment for, for better health.

what are, if there are other benefits also, what are some of the main benefits to be backed by science? I know there’s a lot of claims out there, but then there’s also a very clear evidence for many.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (13:11.968)
Yeah.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (13:17.282)
There are a lot of claims and I want to be really clear that mindfulness is not a magic bullet. It will not fix all your problems. And I’m a scientist, I’m a professor, I’ve been studying this for 25 years. And there are tremendous benefits. Mindfulness has been shown to decrease depression, decrease anxiety, help you sleep better. We’ve published a number of studies with my colleagues at Stanford University showing that mindfulness improves insomnia, helps you fall asleep faster, stay asleep longer, wake up more refreshed.

You also see changes in the brain, literally after just six weeks of practice, you can see impacts where it actually grows the gray matter, grows the areas of the brain that have to have attention, focus, memory, learning. It’s called neurogenesis, which is the growth of new neurons in response to repeated practice. So the impact of mindfulness kind of on our physical health, on our emotional health is significant.

It also increases our compassion. It increases our compassion, especially for those people who are different than us. I think this is so important, especially now in our world. But when you see someone who’s different than you, let’s say fall and hurt themselves.

you don’t feel as compassionate as if you see someone similar to you. It’s kind of sad, but it’s true. And it’s not your fault. It’s because the insula, which is the part of the brain that helps us be compassionate, it stays quiet when someone different than you hurt themselves, but it gets activated, it gets turned on. It lights up when someone similar does. What’s so fascinating about the research and mindfulness is that 10 minutes of mindfulness practice in novice

Then they’re put back into the laboratory where they see someone different fall versus someone the same. Their insula gets activated in both situations and they feel more compassion. So that’s an area that I’m really interested in that mindfulness can help us see others more clearly, see others who are different than us. It also increases our compassion for ourselves. It helps us treat ourselves like we’re, you know,

Dr.  Shauna Shapiro (15:25.142)
worthy of deserving and love of worthy and deserving of love and kindness. And I think somehow that eludes people. Somehow we think we have to be perfect or we have to do it right to deserve kindness. You are worthy of love and kindness no matter what. And I think just one last thing about the research that I find so incredibly important that is often overlooked is mindfulness increases our capacity for joy.

that so often we’re looking at stress management and we’re looking at how do we fix the things that are wrong, but mindfulness increases our ability to feel gratitude, our ability to connect with other people in love and companionship, our ability to actually savor beautiful and joyful experiences that normally just slip by. And happiness is important, right? It’s important, and mindfulness has been shown to increase our happiness levels.

Garrett Salpeter  (16:23.32)
I have to believe that in those last few minutes of listing off all those benefits, everyone now has at least one thing that appeals to them. So, just kidding.

Dr.  Shauna Shapiro (16:31.89)
Well, I hope so. And here’s what I will say, because I am a big proponent of practice that inspiration, aha moments, they don’t translate into learning, right? The whole premise of neuroplasticity is what you practice grows stronger. What this means is you actually have to put in the time. And so here’s what I’m going to say to people listening that maybe feel a touch of inspiration that

New research, this was from my colleague at Stanford, Dr. Andrew Huberman, shows that you only need to practice five minutes a day, five days a week. This is really doable. Five minutes a day, five days a week. And so what I invite people to do is to try this. Just 25 minutes of your entire week. It’s not a lot of time. And to try practicing either first thing in the morning,

or right before bed. And the reason I’m so specific about that is my colleague, Alyssa Epple at UC San Francisco found that your mood in the morning and your mood in the evening are the best predictors of your health. That your mood in the morning and evening actually predict the length of your telomeres, the little caps at the end of our DNA that predict how long we’re gonna live, and the health of our mitochondria, which is the body’s battery.

So these bookends of your day are very, very important and they’re a powerful time to practice.

Garrett Salpeter  (17:59.228)
That’s awesome. So I imagine many people listening are going to be inspired to practice here. There’s a couple, a couple more questions. So one of the things that I’ll mention for people, if they want some guidance in their practice, your website, www.drshaunashapiro.com has two excellent guided meditations and one on mindfulness. Guides people through at least part of the, I believe it’s a 13 minute track. Several of those minutes are on bringing one’s attention and awareness to different parts of the body, helping them relax. So.

It’s kind of a two-part question here. Does something like a stretching practice where someone is actually bringing their awareness and consciously trying to relax in the area of their body, does that count as meditation? And then what about the related topic of people who say like, when I go on my run, they say that’s my meditation or if they’re gardening, that’s my meditation. How would you?

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (18:45.738)
Right. So it’s a great, great question. So I’m going to answer with two parts. One is I do think that stretching mindfully, bringing our awareness to each part of our body is definitely a mindfulness practice. Now, is it a meditation practice? Research really needs to bear that out to compare the differential impact of, let’s say, going for a

mindful run versus a mindful sitting practice. Again, mindfulness is this bigger umbrella term and we can apply it to everything we do. And my hypothesis, and I believe I’m right, is that if you bring this intention, attention, and attitude to your run, to your stretching, to your relationships, to your driving, they are all going to see benefits. Now, whether or not meditation is more effective than going for a run or swimming or stretching,

only rigorous research design can determine that.

Garrett Salpeter  (19:45.94)
Okay. And if people want a starting point, I mean those audios on your website, I definitely would recommend.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (19:51.838)
So I highly recommend my website. It’s free, there’s resources. I also really encourage people to find a friend or a buddy. That’s what the research shows is most impactful. If you want to learn, you know, to play tennis and you have a friend who plays tennis, you’re gonna be much more likely to do it. If you wanna meditate, grab a friend. I’m a book person, so I love reading. And so I recommend, you know, there’s many books on meditation.

If you like audible, I actually read my own book out loud, Rewire Your Mind or the original title, as Garrett was alluding to earlier called Good Morning, I Love You, Mindfulness and Self-Compassion Practices to Rewire Your Brain. I love that title, but my publishers felt like it wasn’t quite scientific enough. And since the book is packed full of science-based practices, we’ve retitled it Rewire Your Mind. You can buy either one on Amazon.

And if you’re listening and you have questions, I always respond via my website. So send me a little note and I will write back.

Garrett Salpeter  (20:56.632)
Yes. And if you want to know the story behind the original title of the book, you’ll find that in the book. My final question for you here, Dr. Shauna Shapiro, is it’s a two-part question. One is, can you please share a little bit about your experience going through New Fit treatment when we treated your hip? And then two, based on that experience, I’m curious if you have any thoughts on how many of the physical therapists and chiropractors or other clinicians listening to this show who do this with their patients.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (21:01.33)
Yes, we need to leave something.

Garrett Salpeter  (21:26.552)
or patients going through treatments, how they could potentially apply the principles of mindfulness to help influence, help improve treatments overall.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (21:26.759)
Yes.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (21:34.734)
Absolutely. So first of all, I was so impressed, surprised and impressed because I was not expecting anything. My New Fit treatment was incredibly helpful and the kind of science behind it and the rigor that you brought to it was really impacted me more than anything else. In terms of how practitioners can use this, I mean, I think the applications are huge in the sense that anyone…

who is involved in the helping or healing profession. You want to first practice mindfulness yourself so that your energy is clear, so that your presence, so that you’re attuned, setting your intention that this be of benefit really helps orient you, helping focus your attention on your client, on your patient, so that you can see all the micro details of their body, and then bringing this attitude of kindness and curiosity. Instead of…

judgment and shame. I think it’s an incredibly powerful resource for the practitioners of NeuFit and also for their clients.

Garrett Salpeter  (22:41.436)
That’s fabulous. Thank you so much, Dr.  Shauna Shapiro. I know you have a busy filming schedule. I so appreciate you taking the time to come on and educate our audience. I think everyone in New Fit Nation is going to share that gratitude and be really excited about some of the, whether it’s the neuroscience or the subjective experience or the practices that we can take, the very tangible tactical suggestions. There’s just so much wisdom here and I really appreciate you and your work. Thank you so much.

Dr. Shauna Shapiro (23:07.911)
Oh, thank you. I appreciate you.

Garrett Salpeter  (23:11.404)
And thank you everybody for tuning into this episode of the Undercurrent Podcast.